junipersky: (Default)
So, I had two WEIRD comments today.

We were discussing security vs. liberty and the Japanese Internment Camps in WWII. When we were done I posed to them this question, "Should some of our rights be given up in times of war?"

The kids then split into three groups. 1) Yes, 2) I don't know, 3) No.

They had to defend their argument verbally. While doing so 9-11 came up and how we treat Arab and Muslim people day. During this discussion came the first weird comment.

This young man (he's 10 mind you) said that we should be afraid and take away the rights of Muslims and Arabs because they've attacked us. I clarified saying, "Do you mean those who've never lived in the middle east, and are American Citizens also?" He said Yes.

EEK! What kind of poison is he being fed at home that he would just lump an entire group of individuals together like that? I mean, it's one thing to be afraid of active militant groups, though I still wouldn't go as far as he would to take away their rights, and quite another to completely profile a group of people as bad!!

The second comment happened after we'd broken up. Some of the kids were really thinking and came up to make comments or ask questions. This little guy is my quietest kid in the class and had the most concerned, most genuine face on when he asked me, "Do you believe that Bin Laden blew up the towers? Because I think it was the government."

I blinked, twice, and then answered, "Well, make sure you look at all of the evidence and then make your decision."

... What has HE been hearing at home?

Those two were the weirdest, though I heard quite a bit of confusion, which is where I wanted them to be. I wanted them to think about all the faces of liberty and then decide for themselves, and if they just didn't know, that was okay too!

A few of them came in over lunch and we talked. The discussion ranged everywhere from 9-11, to segregation, to how rules help us to be free, and different levels of security.

Wow. Just... wow.
junipersky: (Default)
Sam- "The school board called on Arizona's leaders to reverse both of these “misguided” new laws, the press release said." These specific Californians have actually lost it. News Flash California: Nobody cares what you think about other states laws. Get over it. - Los Angeles Students to Be Taught That Arizona Immigration Law Is Un-American
The Los Angeles Unified School District school board wants all public school students in the city to be taught that Arizona's new immigration law is un-American.

Jamie- So... no one cares what California thinks... .but everyone cares what Utah thinks because they like the law and want one just like it?

Kelsey - Illegals aren't immigrants, they're criminals!!True immigrants are people who work to get here legally. Until you LIVE in Arizona, you don't really understand the problems that are brought across the border. The 'law' already exists, it's just not enforced.

Jamie- So we should lock up Illegals with the other 'criminals'? That makes sense. Let them live in a passably safe facility on our own dime. Deportation never happens right away unless they catch someone right on the boarder. Personally, I'd rather let them go free and catch the murderers/rapists/etc.

Sam- Jamie, I think you aren't seeing the point, this law is enforcing laws that have existed since the beginning of the country, but have never been enforced very well. People are actually realizing the breakdown of order that can and is happening because of the lack of immigration law enforcement. California is one of the worst perpetrators of neglect of, and in fact, destruction of immigration law. It is something that is long over due for addressing.

Sam- Jamie, this is from my cousin who lives in AZ. She also lived in several places in California, so she has a great scope for the situation. take a look at her perspective:
Even in border towns in CA the crime and violence probably isn't as bad as it is here. Last month 5 illegals smuggling drugs across the border had a show down with police using ... See MoreAK47's. This was out in the desert, but sill in our ward boundaries! I agree with Arizona's new law (which if you understand the law right isn't really that different from what it was before) and I am proud to say that most LEGAL (regardless of race) Arizonans are on board too, at least according to polls. If CA want's to give refuge to all of our illegals I bet we could find more than enough private parties to fund bus tickets so we can get them there!

Kelsey- Jamie- I don't want any money going towards these people either but as a parent living in Arizona, waiting to catch rapists and murderers isn't acceptable to me.
Sam- It is like political "preventative medicine". It is better to find the cancer and disease early, and irradiate the problem, before it becomes life threatening.

Jamie- I don't see this law doing what you say it will. It will, in my eyes, either a) be misused by law enforcement to harass perfectly legal citizens and possibly lead to harmful interactions and a complete lack of trust which will IMPEDE law enforcement efforts. Right now unless they're immigration (to my knowledge) the police don't have to ask for someone's immigration status when they're interviewing them for a crime. and if your start witness is an illegal, with this law you could lose this witness and as such lose your case. Which means that rapist/murder/etc goes free. b) the law gets completly ignored unless it serves someone's special interest. Kelsey- Your comment highlights a very dangerous trend in American thought. One which equates 'illegal' to 'rapist/murder/etc'. A majority of those who do come across illegally are not here to harm anyone but to escape the violence in their own country and find a better life for themselves. I think that we as a nation tend to judge people by the few who do perpetrate actions which are against our sensibilities. Sam- So... people, just because they're here, are a disease? I cannot support that. They're not. We're a nation of immigrants, and this is just another wave. If it was easier to immigrate, I'm almost positive (note, almost) that more people would be willing to jump through the hoops to do it legaly.

Kelsey- Jamie- I am not trying to be racist, I know plenty of people here in Flagstaff that are here illegally and harmless and if everyone who came across the border was harmless, I wouldn't have a problem welcoming them to our country. I do see your point, too many people clump all illegals together and the enforcement of this law isn't going to help. I just can't overlook the violence that is brought across the border.

Jamie- Neither can I, it's dangerous and harmful to everyone it touches. But I'm not at all confident that this law is addressing the right problem. I'm in the party that it's more of an issue of the violence and boarder control than it is of immigration. Which is why I do support Utah's law. The person in question has to do something wrong before they can be hunted down. I just cannot see how harrassing those living here peacefully is going to stop the violence. If anything, I don't understand why we're not paying more attention to McCain's bill (though I do think the fence is a stupid idea) because that addresses the issue where it begins to be an issue- the border.

Kelsey- I agree, there have been too many incidents at the border and law enforcement needs to have reasonable cause to ask. McCain has the right idea, except the fence.

Jamie-*highfives for agreeing about the fence!*


See? It /is/ possible to have a reasonable argument with someone online without it delving into trolling/flaming/etc

February 2015

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